Posts by Doubting Bro

22

Questions for FormerMormon

by rebel8 in

jw
friends

you accumulate additional wives through attrition or serial monogamy.

i didn't want to threadjack, so i started a separate thread.. do you get all the previous wives back in the afterlife?.

i recently read you get your own family in the afterlife, to share with your 4+ wives and spirit children.

Doubting Bro

You wonder if that show is going to end up with everyone back at the compound and in a showdown with the Feds, Waco style.

I'm not exactly sure why they even introduced the Russian chick, but it sounds like she's leaving the "family" anyway. I really thought the daughter's plan to go to school out of state was a good one. Its kind of interesting to see how Bill's kids from Barb (especially his daughter) are repulsed by the whole thing.

Too bad HBO can't come up with a JW show. I guess it would be just way too boring!!

20

First century governing body?

by lostsheep82 in

my anointed step dad always mentions about how the first century christians had a governing body also.

where in the bible does it actually say that?

to me governing body is just a dictatorship of men who think they are right and can control, no different than the governments....governing body set rules, and ultimately decide your future as far as i'm concerned.

Doubting Bro

Sir82,

That was at the last "elders school" (not the current one the COBOE is attending). I distinctly remember the person giving the talk was a local heavy weight and he specifically said that he was reading this directly from the outline and he seemed very uncomfortable with the stretch. At the time, I was starting to doubt and was also very uncomfortable that that "logic"

On topic - if there was a first century GB, how come Paul wasn't on it? Wasn't he directly selected by Jesus to be an apostle to the nations? And, how come the only time they really interacted with Paul was with the whole circumcison issue referred to in Acts 15.

22

Questions for FormerMormon

by rebel8 in

jw
friends

you accumulate additional wives through attrition or serial monogamy.

i didn't want to threadjack, so i started a separate thread.. do you get all the previous wives back in the afterlife?.

i recently read you get your own family in the afterlife, to share with your 4+ wives and spirit children.

Doubting Bro

Whoa, I just got a major headache trying to wrap my mind around that teaching! Thanks for sharing that, its interesting. Seems like the LDS has the same problems with their teachings on the "ever after" as the JWs has with the "paradise earth" teaching. Neither can handle practical, simple questions.

Bottom line, I can see the LDS is just as big a cult as the JWs because the theme of both is to put the religion above any personal relationship. They do the exact same thing about trying to leaverage the believer against the doubter and there have been cases where elders have encouraged the believing spouse to leave on the grounds of "spiritual endangerment".

Really interesting regarding the wedding ceremony. The JW ceremony doesn't go quite as far as the LDS but does really stress that in their opinion, no marriage can be sucessful without "God" (they really mean the WTS). More time is spent on each persons duties as opposed to the celebration of the couples love.

BTW - My wife & I regularly watch Big Love. I slip in comparisons to JWs all the time (not the polygamy but the other stuff).

389

WANTED ! JW Apologist

by wobble in

this must have been mentioned before,but now reniaa is back it could be fun.. if jw's are even part way to the truth,and all other religions are false, then they must have a doctrine that is unique to them,given by holy spirit, but plainly taught in the bible,without resorting to fancifull exegesis and bouncing around from verse to verse out of context etc.. what is that doctrine?.

love.

wobble.. .

Doubting Bro

signs start getting fulfilled all around our ears and a religion doesn't appear without some imperfection in it, will we be saved when all we have done is fence sit?

I guess I haven't seen any signs getting fulfilled. We live in a time of unprecedented prosperity, we have more problems across the world with obesity than we do with hunger, earthquakes have been stable, Black Death took more lives on a precentage basis than the Spanish Flu which was the biggest epidemic since 1914. So, I have trouble buying that we're in the "last days". People have been saying that for centuries. I used to believe that we were but once I objectively examined the evidence, I just don't see it. Also, I'm not the one who says I'm God channel. That's a tall order. At least Jesus and the apostles performed miracles to back up their claims. I haven't seen that sort of proof from the WTS. I would expect that if Jesus is going to lead an army of angles to kill 6 billion people, that he would at least provide a religion that while not perfect in the sense of not having sin, would at least not teach false dates and flip flop around on theology. Why is that too much to ask?

Did any of the early biblical faiths and leaders show perfection in action and purposeeven though they had direct teachings from God?

I don't recall Moses changing the Law once he delivered it to the Israelites? Where can I find that? Or the apostles changing doctrine? Again, my standard isn't perfection in action since that would be impossible for an imperfect person to acheive. But, if God is giving the information, I would expect that to be accurate information.

Show me a better religion that knows God's purposes better than the Jw's preach and I'll look at it. but I reserve the right to judge it by the bible if it preaches cross, hellfire and trinity it will fall at the first fence for me.

I can't help you there in terms of joining a particular religion. You should judge a religion by its holy book. I don't think anyone here thinks any differently. I grew up a JW, that's pretty much all I know. I haven't studied the details of other religions. What I have concluded is that the WTS is not Gods channel of communication. Perhaps we're still in the "Great Apostacy"? What I try to do is exhibit good towards others. Even though I still go to the meetings, I simply don't believe the JWs are the truth. However, I'm not willing to sacrifice my family so I continue. But, I'm dead according to WTS theology because I don't believe they're Gods channel. So, I'm destined to be destroyed not because I've rejected God, but I've rejected those claiming to speak for Him. Show me a miracle, something, anything to prove that lofty claim.

389

WANTED ! JW Apologist

by wobble in

this must have been mentioned before,but now reniaa is back it could be fun.. if jw's are even part way to the truth,and all other religions are false, then they must have a doctrine that is unique to them,given by holy spirit, but plainly taught in the bible,without resorting to fancifull exegesis and bouncing around from verse to verse out of context etc.. what is that doctrine?.

love.

wobble.. .

Doubting Bro

Reniaa- I posted this under the 1914 topic but you may not have seen it. This is basically the same discussion anyway so I thought I would post this here.

Reniaa - I agree that other religions have predicted the end of the world and your post shows just how long that is been going on. I also agree that because they predicted something that did not happen, they are false prophets and their religion didn't teach truth. However, I hold the WTS to the same standard and they, like the others, are also false prophets due to their inaccuracy regarding dates. Which means they also are not the true religion.

Remember the often used illustration where a cold glass of water is sitting on the table and you walk in from doing lawn work. Now, you really are thirsty and that water looks great. As you reach to grab the glass, someone takes a dropper and places ONE DROP of sewer water in the glass. Would you drink it? Of course not, that's disgusting. Now, look at religion the same way. Would you want to be involved in a religion that had just ONE DROP of falsehood?

I've used this illustration in numerous talks and got it from the WTS. I'm sure you've heard variations of it. The point is that the WTS holds other religions to a standard that they are not willing to hold themselves to. On the one hand, they claim to be Gods channel, the only true Christians - a claim which other religions also make. Yet, on the other hand, they play the imperfection card.

I think in matters of individual members conduct, the imperfection card is a valid one. But, in matters of theology, rules and especially in matters of setting dates, the WTS claims to be spirit directed. So, when they are directed by holy spirit to make a policy, then reverse that policy, whose fault is it? Why would God tell his only true worshipers something false. I can't find any example in the Bible where that has happened. Why would you have a spirit directed teaching on something so important like the generation that Jesus spoke about seeing the end only to change it, change it again, and finally change it back to the original? At what point was holy spirit not directing the changes? Or was it all a "test"? I thought Satan was the only one who tested Gods servants?

38

Closet apostate on the writing committee?

by sir82 in

jw
friends

i haven't seen any comments on this yet.... in the december 15, 2008 "study" version of the watchtower, in the last study article (the one to be covered march 1), paragraph 14 reads thusly in part:.

"...one january evening, the man asked his wife, jodi, what she knew of jehovah's witnesses.

she was a catholic, and she said that the only thing she linked to the witnesses to was "door-to-door preaching".

Doubting Bro

Sir82, you make a good point but I think that you're giving those writers FAR too much credit. I'm inclinded to go with the "trying to be hip" comments. I guess time will tell, right?

Of course, if there is someone attempting to put a subversive message, you've likely outed them!

I do sense that the WTS is on the verge of transforming. Not sure which direction it will go in but I would not be surprised if something big doesn't happen in the next 5-10 years. There are been so many changes in just the last 5 years the religion is already starting to look different. Should be interesting to watch.

30

Are most Jehovah's Witnesses zealous,fence sitters,or going thru the motions?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

there are close to 7 million baptised jehovah's witnesses in the world.

most start off real zealous in meeting attendance and preaching work.

some remain zealous but most cool off sooner or later.

Doubting Bro

If fills our need for social contact and friendship. I would say that's the true of most of my family that are still in. They are not especially zealous, by any stretch, and I would say they privately question a lot of the teachings.
I totally agree with that statement. My wife has admitted to me that the main reason she's a JW is because that's how she was raised and its part of her culture. To some extent, I get it. If not for the harsh shunning, blood transfusion and door knocking, I would agree with her that it doesn't hurt. The main pull of any religion is the social part of it and I don't necessarily have a problem with that.
I really think the WTS would be in much better shape both membership wise and financially if they dropped some of their more extreme teachings and mainstreamed. They may lose some folks, but with a 2/3rds churn rate, they must budget for that anyway.

16

Local Needs Parts.....

by AK - Jeff in

i have not set foot inside a kh for over 5 years now.

i suspect that i have been the 'subject' of the lnp's more than once.

i suppose every time someone gets a face to face with me in the local shops, and the elders hear of it, i get another dishonorable mention on thursday night.

Doubting Bro

Yknot - Wow, that's especially cruel. A 9 year old with "independent thinking"? Absurd.

Quandry - It almost sounds to me that they were using your daughter to hurt your husband. I've never personally experienced that sort of BOE politics but have seen it happen in other places. What awful men they were to do that to a young girl. Glad to hear she's thriving!!

Jeff - You wonder what they're so afraid of? I guess they got tired of talking about important things like what kind of dress and grooming is acceptable to God or beating up everyone for not making enough meetings or going out in FS? Got to mix in the "beware of the evil apostate" talk to keep things lively!

I started to say that I couldn't remember anything like this happening, but come to think of it, I can remember several times where they've been directed at individuals. Usually, they were when someone was df'ed or reproved. So much for keeping the information confidential.

42

1914 coverup has begun

by hamsterbait in

jw
friends

i spoke to an elderly sister, 94, who is deteriorating rapidly.

she honestly believed she would never die.. obviously she is desperate to deny to herself that the cult she allowed to steal her one and only life a second at a time is still true.. "the generation change is just like 1975 - we were sifted.

we were being tested as to who was serving jehovah for a date and those with unbreakable trust in the organisation he has appointed.".

Doubting Bro

Reniaa - I agree that other religions have predicted the end of the world and your post shows just how long that is been going on. I also agree that because they predicted something that did not happen, they are false prophets and their religion didn't teach truth. However, I hold the WTS to the same standard and they, like the others, are also false prophets due to their inaccuracy regarding dates. Which means they also are not the true religion.

Remember the often used illustration where a cold glass of water is sitting on the table and you walk in from doing lawn work. Now, you really are thirsty and that water looks great. As you reach to grab the glass, someone takes a dropper and places ONE DROP of sewer water in the glass. Would you drink it? Of course not, that's disgusting. Now, look at religion the same way. Would you want to be involved in a religion that had just ONE DROP of falsehood?

I've used this illustration in numerous talks and got it from the WTS. I'm sure you've heard variations of it. The point is that the WTS holds other religions to a standard that they are not willing to hold themselves to. On the one hand, they claim to be Gods channel, the only true Christians - a claim which other religions also make. Yet, on the other hand, they play the imperfection card.

I think in matters of individual members conduct, the imperfection card is a valid one. But, in matters of theology, rules and especially in matters of setting dates, the WTS claims to be spirit directed. So, when they are directed by holy spirit to make a policy, then reverse that policy, whose fault is it? Why would God tell his only true worshipers something false. I can't find any example in the Bible where that has happened. Why would you have a spirit directed teaching on something so important like the generation that Jesus spoke about seeing the end only to change it, change it again, and finally change it back to the original? At what point was holy spirit not directing the changes? Or was it all a "test"? I thought Satan was the only one who tested Gods servants?

18

Interesting comment by a JW regarding the new schedule

by wha happened? in

a buddy of mine who is still serving and doesn't treat me like a leper was chatting with me about the new bookstudy arrangement and the meetings in general.

he stated that the way the parts are set up now, that simply winging the answers from the km or other study material, is next to impossible.

he went on to state that he understood that the society is pushing for more pre-study.. at the risk of sounding bad, are there any thoughts on a push to get rid of the fence sitters?.

Doubting Bro

I think there is less "pre-study" going on now. If you're an elder, instead of having to conduct the BS every week, you now have to do it once a month or two depending on how many elders are rotating. Also, there are less paragraphs to cover. Plus, the time frame is compressed so all you can really do is parrot the 5th grade level text.

The WT is the same as it has been in the past. As was mentioned, the r&f are discouraged from doing any research outside the WTS and WT conductors are instructed to keep close to the printed material. I remember I used to spend quite a bit of time looking up additional thoughts, etc to share both with the BS & the WT when I was a believer.

wha happened, I think your friend is trying to appeal to your intellect to attract you back to the fold.